By John
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#52926
Dean wrote: Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:49:03 pm How did Angelina going tank your game tonight? I've been dying to know the dynamics of how things worked on your end for a while now, especially since the merge. Just how close were you, Alison, Angelina, and Kara with each other game-wise? Is Alison the next top-dog after you? I'm so curious about your game. Glad I don't have to beat around the bush anymore though when asking questions; our IMs were exhausting :crine:
That's a loaded question. :laugh: Will go into details tomorrow.
 

John

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#52932
After a night's sleep, I do want to say that while I did write in my confessional the moment Angelina was removed, that Aaron/Nick/Tommy/Jack would all team up together to get rid of me, there was a lot of completely unnecessary lying to make me feel comfortable. That said, I also never trusted anyone fully except for Alison and Kara, and I was shocked that the four + Dean didn't try to make a move at the final 9. Never felt like I was in a good position which is why I am kind of confused why I was considered such a big threat. I think it comes down to Carl poisoning my name before the merge on his swapped tribe (for reasons I still don't entirely understand since they completely killed his game), but maybe I was missing something else. Either way, Kara is the only one I felt completely betrayed by. I also am curious to know how much she was involved in the planning of this, or if she just saw the writing on the wall and wanted to join the majority.

After I played the idol on Alison, I told Alison, Kara, and Angelina that my goal was to get us all to the final 4. This wasn't entirely true since I eventually wanted Angelina gone before then because I wasn't in her final 3, but I was under the impression that all we needed to do was get to the final 8 intact. Everyone else would have been making a huge mistake to allow a clear tight group to make up half of the game. When we got there, I was ecstatic for obvious reasons, and it definitely hurt to see Angelina leave in the way that they did. That being said, they could have all still been playing my exit the entire weekend. I really don't know, but Angelina and Alison were both heavily targeting Nick before she was kicked out of the game. Nick really outed himself as a slime ball for the 8th time when he whispered to me after Dean played the fake idol that Angelina had the real idol, something I had no idea about. Angelina lost a ton of trust in him, something I never really had to begin with in Nick. I honestly thought he proved himself to be untrustworthy for entirety of the game from the moment he was trying to accumulate coins in round 1 but that's a story for another day.

Anyways, both Kara and Alison separately came to me telling me that Angelina told them she wanted to go to the final 3 with Kara and Alison. Angelina also promised me final 4, and I fully believe that was her intention because she was open about pretty much everything. Because Kara and Alison both told me that she wanted me gone in 4th (and a number of things including working together night after night), I also fully believed that Kara and Alison wanted me in the final 3 with them. I was worried about Angelina's idol, and we were still trying to figure out a plan as to how to get rid of it on Sunday. Nick, who created a final 3 alliance with me and Tommy, was trying to create an elaborate plan where we give Angelina the majority of the votes while putting the rest of the votes on Aaron in case she does play the idol. I don't know if he was actually being honest with me, or if he was targeting me instead of Angelina, but I do know that my plan was to split the votes between Angelina and Nick, and if I knew for a fact that three or four of Angelina, Alison, or Kara were voting for Nick like was planned, then I would have told Angelina to play her idol before tribal council which would have resulted in Nick leaving next. Alison actually wanted the planned boot order to be Nick at final 8 then Angelina at final 7, but we hadn't fully planned this out yet. I was worried about giving Tommy/Aaron/Jack the opportunity to have a 3-3 split, so I feel like I would have pushed back against that. That said, I think Kara may been screwed the most in this with Angelina leaving if she was planning to stick with us to use Angelina's idol against someone, then she could have flipped to make a massive move on her own at the final 7 if she wanted. She also could have made the decision to stick with her alliance before. I really don't know what she was thinking anymore which is kind of sad since I trusted her almost fully until Tommy spilled that Nick had created an alliance with Kara and Tommy (same as the one he created with Tommy and me). I knew Kara was close with Nick from the original tribe, but I didn't realize how close. I also confronted Kara about this, and she denied it despite me going into detail about what Tommy told me (even said the name of the group chat that Tommy told me). Anyways, Tommy telling Alison and me that Kara, Nick, and him had an alliance was so unnecessary if he was lying to us the whole time since I was a dead man walking. I guess the point of it was to run salt in the wound? He completely pledged his loyalty to us by throwing Nick and Kara under the bus about an alliance he was in with them despite having no intention of working with us. To me that was pretty sloppy gameplay, although I felt the same way about Nick making multiple iterations of the same alliance. I told Alison I didn't really trust Tommy, but she seemed to believe what he was saying since it really didn't make sense for him to lie about it. Alison then took this information and tried to make a final 4 person alliance with Aaron, Tommy, and me. Since I trusted Aaron even less than Tommy, I thought this could be additional ammo to take me out, so I wasn't too happy about it, but under the logic that Nick and Kara were potentially trying to play against us, it was the only real option. I also think Aaron had been targeting me since the swap, so there was not really much I could do on that end. I would really like to know the timeline of how my boot came about if it was in the works the entire weekend, or if it only happened because of Angelina leaving. They could've all been planning my exit from the moment Dean left, but this is really a question solely for Kara since without her vote (and Angelina still in the game), they didn't have the numbers to get rid of me.

It's really funny to me how everything I said my pitch to Aaron/Dean/Carl after I idol'ed out Lauren turned out to be true. I told them that the two "sides" needed to work together in order to get rid of the people playing both sides, otherwise they would dictate the rest of the game and take control of it. That is exactly what happened, and this could have all been avoided had they not targeted me at the final 11. This is why I said Carl was the only reason that Carl left. Tommy and Nick were obviously not trustworthy nor reliable to have on anyone's side, and I would have been extremely happy to take away their power and get rid of them. That said, I was trying to make anything work to save myself, so when I found out from those exact same people that despite you guys guaranteeing for hours on end that Tommy was the one leaving, I knew from Nick that I was your target and had no other options to save myself but to vote for Carl. You all can say whatever you want about me, but the main reason Carl/Dan/Dean all ended up here in a row is because they all voted for me when they didn't have to. Because of that decision, Tommy and Nick have been able to maneuver themselves throughout the game, and they now seem to be in control. The reason I didn't target them after is because again, I only thought we needed to get to the final 8 with Angelina, Alison, and Kara in order to be in a position where the worst case scenario was us forcing a tie. Not 100% if that is accurate or not.

Going back slightly further to the original tribe since it seemed to have a huge impact on the rest of the game. I was in three group chats. Dan invited me to one with Dan/Carl/Nick, Kara invited me to one with Kara/Jessica/Nick, and Alison invited me to one with Jessica/Alison. The Kara and Alison ones happened on the same night (and I think a day before Dan's chat), and because I was in both with Jessica, it made me bond even more with her. I also eventually told Jessica and Alison about the idol I found thinking that they would keep it quiet and not tell anyone. Also, I lied about the timing of when I sent Jessica the idol. I actually sent it to her immediately after her tribe lost the post timing challenge. So yes, I considered Jessica by far my closest ally in this game (and when she left, she sent me a ton of coins which eventually bought us immunity in the final 14 challenge). That being said, I don't really understand why Carl lost all trust in me because of the Davie vote when I spent hours trying to tell everyone to vote for Christian using the logic that we don't want to murky the waters before a swap. In fact, the only reason I stopped pushing for it was because Carl gave up and messaged me that the vote was for Davie (which was a huge sign to me that he wasn't going to be willing to fight for his allies if they were in danger). I told Davie he was in trouble, and I found out I was the only one to do so which was insane to me. Never understood the idea to blindside people just for the sake of it. Anyways, I was not the one in power or the one who decided Davie should leave. What happened was in the Kara/Jessica/Nick/me group chat, we were all talking about how Christian would be the easiest vote, and Kara brought up that she thought Carl/Nick/Davie were all aligned. I have no idea if this was true or not, but I pushed back quite a bit saying that if we think they are aligned, why do we want to piss them off right before we go into a swap and might need them? But Kara and Christian made a deal of some sort, and she convinced Jessica and Alison and Angelina to all be on board since Christian would be a loyal vote to their side (which was also true). Nick told me that he was hesitant, but he didn't seem to me to want to put up much of a fight (I could be wrong on that point, we both did want Davie to stay at least). The moment Carl said Davie was the vote without even an argument against it was when I knew it was hopeless though. Anyways, Kara may not have been aligned with everyone on our original tribe, but she was the main proponent of Davie leaving. I thought it was a great gameplay move for her, especially since Carl somehow blamed me for it and not her at all. Oh, yeah. All while this was happening, Dan was trying to get rid of Alison over Christian which was also just as insane to me at the time and never happening. Our tribe was a ticking time bomb that would have exploded immediately had there not been a swap next.

I know this is a rambling mess. Anything that doesn't make sense, let me know, and I can clarify. I am sure I missed a ton of details along the way, but I tried to focus on what seems to be the main questions around here.
 

John

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By Lauren
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#52941
^ Angelina probably had way more deals than anyone even credits her for. I don’t believe she wanted to go to the end with you guys at all even if she said it.
 

Lauren

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By Dan
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#52943
Lauren wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:10:13 pm ^ Angelina probably had way more deals than anyone even credits her for. I don’t believe she wanted to go to the end with you guys at all even if she said it.
Clearly. She was even working deals outside the game, so it would seem. I'll just say it definitely did not come as a surprise. I suspect Alison and Angelina know each other in such fashion as well. Felt like it from the start...
 

Dan

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By John
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#52944
Lauren wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:10:13 pm ^ Angelina probably had way more deals than anyone even credits her for. I don’t believe she wanted to go to the end with you guys at all even if she said it.
Possibly, but she was pretty open about what she wanted and did throughout the game. For example, anyone who asked her if she had the idol, she answered yes honestly. She also told everyone about the deal she made with Aaron and Dean to get Dan and Jack out at final 9/10.

I think she was committed to going to the final 3 with the girls. We’ll never know though.
 

John

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#52945
Dan wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:31:36 pm I suspect Alison and Angelina know each other in such fashion as well. Felt like it from the start...
Come on, man. That’s a ridiculous accusation.
 

John

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By Lauren
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#52948
John wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:36:23 pm
Dan wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:31:36 pm I suspect Alison and Angelina know each other in such fashion as well. Felt like it from the start...
Come on, man. That’s a ridiculous accusation.
Actually it’s a completely fair one. There’s no proof obviously but still.
 

Lauren

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#52950
Dan wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:31:36 pm
Lauren wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:10:13 pm ^ Angelina probably had way more deals than anyone even credits her for. I don’t believe she wanted to go to the end with you guys at all even if she said it.
Clearly. She was even working deals outside the game, so it would seem. I'll just say it definitely did not come as a surprise. I suspect Alison and Angelina know each other in such fashion as well. Felt like it from the start...
@Jury Angelina and Alison don't know each other. Please keep the jury threads about the game and what the players have and have not done to earn your votes.
Gary Hogeboom, Nate Gonzalez, Aubry and 5 others liked this
 

Danni Boatwright

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By Dean
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#52951
This was a good detailed read which I do enjoy, but I must comment:

John wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:33:48 am It's really funny to me how everything I said my pitch to Aaron/Dean/Carl after I idol'ed out Lauren turned out to be true. I told them that the two "sides" needed to work together in order to get rid of the people playing both sides, otherwise they would dictate the rest of the game and take control of it. That is exactly what happened
No need for the quotation marks, just drop that already. There were different sides. You said even here that Kara and Alison were your F3, with Angelina as the 4th. Now, I knew there were cracks in my alliance; some were pretty obvious cracks actually. Whereas you, like I already predicted before, were a solid foursome and unless a miracle happened, you'd never turn on each other that early and there were no cracks in your alliance at all. That was far more dangerous in my eyes than anything else. What was the point of allying up temporarily if I knew there would be no way to try and sway at least one of you away from your super tight foursome? Can't speak for the rest of my group but that's how I felt. If at least one of you/Angelina/Alison/Kara were eliminated, then my alliance would have the numbers for a while (at the latest until F6) and we would be more open to negotiations. And perhaps after this hypothetical vote where one of you managed to go out, then maybe we would have pursued this middleground as free as we wish to and left you alone, since we'd be in total control.

Then there was also the fact that our side felt as though you were bullshitting us with this "target the people playing "both" sides" stuff, and that you would target one of our core people regardless, even though we knew your alliance took great offence at the concept of lying; we couldn't take a chance that you'd lie to us. I mean, it would have felt super fucking embarrassing if we agreed to get rid of Tommy legitimately this time, only for TC to come, and our side votes out Tommy and then you guys manage to get out someone like Aaron. We didn't want to risk that.
 

Dean

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By John
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#52952
Lauren wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:16:08 pm
John wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:36:23 pm
Dan wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 12:31:36 pm I suspect Alison and Angelina know each other in such fashion as well. Felt like it from the start...
Come on, man. That’s a ridiculous accusation.
Actually it’s a completely fair one. There’s no proof obviously but still.
How is it a fair accusation to say Alison cheated when there’s no proof?

It’s horrible to hear Missy and Angelina talked outside the game, and I really hope that they didn’t until after Missy was voted out so it didn’t affect the game. We have no way of knowing what happened unfortunately......That said, it’s not fair to say Alison did the same just because Dan couldn’t successfully vote her out.
 

John

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#52953
Dean wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:49:29 pm This was a good detailed read which I do enjoy, but I must comment:

John wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 7:33:48 am It's really funny to me how everything I said my pitch to Aaron/Dean/Carl after I idol'ed out Lauren turned out to be true. I told them that the two "sides" needed to work together in order to get rid of the people playing both sides, otherwise they would dictate the rest of the game and take control of it. That is exactly what happened
No need for the quotation marks, just drop that already. There were different sides. You said even here that Kara and Alison were your F3, with Angelina as the 4th. Now, I knew there were cracks in my alliance; some were pretty obvious cracks actually. Whereas you, like I already predicted before, were a solid foursome and unless a miracle happened, you'd never turn on each other that early and there were no cracks in your alliance at all. That was far more dangerous in my eyes than anything else. What was the point of allying up temporarily if I knew there would be no way to try and sway at least one of you away from your super tight foursome? Can't speak for the rest of my group but that's how I felt. If at least one of you/Angelina/Alison/Kara were eliminated, then my alliance would have the numbers for a while (at the latest until F6) and we would be more open to negotiations. And perhaps after this hypothetical vote where one of you managed to go out, then maybe we would have pursued this middleground as free as we wish to and left you alone, since we'd be in total control.

Then there was also the fact that our side felt as though you were bullshitting us with this "target the people playing "both" sides" stuff, and that you would target one of our core people regardless, even though we knew your alliance took great offence at the concept of lying; we couldn't take a chance that you'd lie to us. I mean, it would have felt super fucking embarrassing if we agreed to get rid of Tommy legitimately this time, only for TC to come, and our side votes out Tommy and then you guys manage to get out someone like Aaron. We didn't want to risk that.
All of that is a completely fair rationale if you had the numbers. The four of us were close, and I never expected us all make it as far as we did so a move should have been made to take one of us out. I personally think Kara and Alison were more against Carl than I was, but I don’t fault anyone for trying to target me.

However, because you didn’t have Nick on your side (I had to hold back from using quotes), the plan was flawed. It’s fine if you didn’t believe me at the time, but by your group taking that risk to get rid of me over one of the people that actually had decision making power (ie Tommy and Nick), Carl was eliminated.

That being said, I also have absolutely no idea why Nick thought he was better off with us than you. That part surprised me when he said he was wanting to make a move to go for Carl since Carl felt close to him and even gave Nick coins on his way out. I told Nick and Tommy to talk to each other and figure out if it made sense to join us, but the two of them were the two people that decided who was leaving and made Carl the target that night.
 

John

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#52955
Also, Dean, need to clarify that all of this is revisionist history based on knowing that Tommy and Nick were flipping. At the time I don’t think you could have known that if you didn’t believe me and Kara both yelling it to try to save ourselves.

Also not sure if you could’ve done more to make Nick more comfortable, but Tommy got treated pretty poorly after I played my idol.
 

John

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By Lauren
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#52956
John wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:32:07 pm Also, Dean, need to clarify that all of this is revisionist history based on knowing that Tommy and Nick were flipping. At the time I don’t think you could have known that if you didn’t believe me and Kara both yelling it to try to save ourselves.

Also not sure if you could’ve done more to make Nick more comfortable, but Tommy got treated pretty poorly after I played my idol.
Tommy mentioned you to go to me several times, and even wanted you out the night I left. I didn’t put up much of a fight when it came to Alison which obviously I regret. I could’ve easily steered the target if I was motivated enough. The thing is, nobody wanted to work with Dan - in fact Tommy was whispering to me the night Chelsea left to flip the votes and get Dan out but I don’t think Carl would’ve gone for it.

Nick is actually playing a better game that I thought. He’s flipping on people at the right moments and doing it in a way without fear of retribution. I mean, he voted for me knowing I would stay but to fool you guys into thinking he was with you - it worked for him, considering I was never ever going to let him get away with voting me the way he did, but I think most people knew that I was always going to be a target over them. Nobody was surprised when I got idol’d out. I expected it even before you played it. It was probably a good move for you guys, I dunno, but I was not going to stick around with that voting bloc under any circumstances.
 

Lauren

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By Dean
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#52957
(Should we move this chat to the main commentary thread that's pinned do you think? Or keep it here?)

Nick was the biggest miscalculation for us. For me. I actually considered him a part of the core at the time, but apparently he felt completely left out, he told us after the Carl vote. We were all in a group, and I tried talking to him about things individually, but his lack of being online didn't help him at all. It was impossible to have enough time to relay info to him and include him in on things when so many developments happened when he wasn't online. Plus, since I thought Carl was his closest ally, that I didn't need to put as much effort into Nick as I could have. Because of all of this, and because I knew how tight your foursome was John, I was gobsmacked when Nick said he felt like we were going to target him and therefore he felt safer working with you guys. Carl seemed to be one of the brains on our side, so Aaron and I would vote out Carl before we'd consider voting out Nick. I think Carl and Dan's Jury threads show the story of why Carl gave Nick his coins and why Carl thought I flipped (I'm still lmao about that tbh).

It certainly does appear as though Nick and Tommy are this middle who are playing everyone with this new info you're giving to the jury. I don't know if Nick and Tommy are working together or not, or if it is all a big coincidence that their plans and paths are similar.

Nick no, I didn't know he'd flip, but Tommy was always an uncertainty ever since the merge began, so yes it was not a 100% shock, just a disappointment. He was basically a pocket vote, but one we had to keep eyes on. We failed at keeping our eyes on him lol.

I believe it was the time period of post-Lauren pre-Carl where we didn't talk to Tommy, since we decided he may not be able to be trusted with delicate game info since he told you about our Alison plan. For me it only was game. This whole game is just a game to me. So it confuses me when you say Tommy got treated poorly after the Lauren vote, because all I did was just talk to Tommy a bit less. I know Aaron was very vocal to me about his hatred for what Tommy did (I think he told me he didn't even want to speak with him after the game and he was worse than Nick), so unless Aaron or others went hard on him, I don't understand your last point.

I feel like we could have this discussion and others for a while, so I'll put the ball in your court whether you wanna continue to talk in your thread about this or go to the other one.
 

Dean

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#52959
Dean wrote: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:27:32 pm (Should we move this chat to the main commentary thread that's pinned do you think? Or keep it here?)

Nick was the biggest miscalculation for us. For me. I actually considered him a part of the core at the time, but apparently he felt completely left out, he told us after the Carl vote. We were all in a group, and I tried talking to him about things individually, but his lack of being online didn't help him at all. It was impossible to have enough time to relay info to him and include him in on things when so many developments happened when he wasn't online. Plus, since I thought Carl was his closest ally, that I didn't need to put as much effort into Nick as I could have. Because of all of this, and because I knew how tight your foursome was John, I was gobsmacked when Nick said he felt like we were going to target him and therefore he felt safer working with you guys. Carl seemed to be one of the brains on our side, so Aaron and I would vote out Carl before we'd consider voting out Nick. I think Carl and Dan's Jury threads show the story of why Carl gave Nick his coins and why Carl thought I flipped (I'm still lmao about that tbh).

It certainly does appear as though Nick and Tommy are this middle who are playing everyone with this new info you're giving to the jury. I don't know if Nick and Tommy are working together or not, or if it is all a big coincidence that their plans and paths are similar.

Nick no, I didn't know he'd flip, but Tommy was always an uncertainty ever since the merge began, so yes it was not a 100% shock, just a disappointment. He was basically a pocket vote, but one we had to keep eyes on. We failed at keeping our eyes on him lol.

I believe it was the time period of post-Lauren pre-Carl where we didn't talk to Tommy, since we decided he may not be able to be trusted with delicate game info since he told you about our Alison plan. For me it only was game. This whole game is just a game to me. So it confuses me when you say Tommy got treated poorly after the Lauren vote, because all I did was just talk to Tommy a bit less. I know Aaron was very vocal to me about his hatred for what Tommy did (I think he told me he didn't even want to speak with him after the game and he was worse than Nick), so unless Aaron or others went hard on him, I don't understand your last point.

I feel like we could have this discussion and others for a while, so I'll put the ball in your court whether you wanna continue to talk in your thread about this or go to the other one.
LOL, I only trusted Nick through Carl. Can’t believe you did. And, after he voted me during the Missy boot I really wanted him gone.
 

Lauren

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By Carl
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#52961
I think we all miscalculated Nick and that is honestly my fault. But the kid was also barely online like Dean said so it was hard to relay information to him. That said, I got too comfortable with him and assumed it would just be fine going forward because of this. Because of this, I ignored the signs about the middle and you were right, we should have done something about it. Although I was wary about working with your tight group of four.

Like you said though, I don't know what his gameplan was going forward if Angelina wasn't removed from the game. I am curious to ask him what his plan was to get to the F3 cause I thought you guys needed to be broken up first before moving forward with picking off our own numbers.

Also yes this is complicated as fuck to bounce between like three different threads lmao. I miss the IMs and group chats
 

Carl

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#52963
I honestly don't know haha. I wanted to break up that group first and then go from there. I was even willing to never ax you and work with you going forward if that ended up being best for my game. But my main goal at the time was just to break that up and then go from there.
 

Carl

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